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    » France Is Hoist On Its Own Petard ~ UPDATED from GM's Corner
    Oddly enough, this individual is praying for France! The French are now at a crossroads of thier own making. By pandering to the labor unions, the government has dropped the work week and the work ethic to such low standards that unemployment in France... [Read More]

    » Paris is still burning from white pebble
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    » French Riot Stuff from On the Contrary: Don's Mideast Musings
    I've avoided commenting on the ongoing riots in France, for the very good reason that I have nothing to say on the subject that’s worth reading. Judy at Adloyada does, however; as usual, her article is thoughtful, informative, and replete with lots o... [Read More]

    » Paris is burning: '68/'05 from NEWSgrist
    image source I've been searching Technorati for expat etc. blog posts covering the riots in France. It's amazing to confront the white supremacist and racist analyses that are out there (see also the excerpts from Pat Buchannan at La [Read More]

    » Paris is burning: '68/'05 from NEWSgrist
    image source I've been searching Technorati for expat etc. blog posts covering the riots in France. It's amazing to confront the white supremacist and racist analyses that are out there (conversely, see also the excerpts from Pat Buchannan and [Read More]

    » How Empires End from La Shawn Barber's Corner
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    » The Second Battle of Tours and wishful thinking... from The Pink Flamingo Bar Grill
    It would be so much easier if the riots in France could be compared, as Glenn Reynolds suggested, to Watts. [Read More]

    » How odd no one picked up on the fact that the Fren from The Pink Flamingo Bar Grill
    If the Blogsphere is truly interested in understanding the riots in France why has no one highlighted the fact that the [Read More]

    » Britblog Roundup # 39 from Tim Worstall
    Something of a bumper crop for this week’s Britblog Roundup! As ever you can make your nominations for next week’s by emailing the URL to britblog AT gmail DOT com. Best posts from British and Irish blogs please, those things [Read More]

    » Britblog Roundup # 39 from Tim Worstall
    Something of a bumper crop for this week’s Britblog Roundup! As ever you can make your nominations for next week’s by emailing the URL to britblog AT gmail DOT com. Best posts from British and Irish blogs please, those things [Read More]

    » Britblog Roundup # 39 from Tim Worstall
    Something of a bumper crop for this week’s Britblog Roundup! As ever you can make your nominations for next week’s by emailing the URL to britblog AT gmail DOT com. Best posts from British and Irish blogs please, those things [Read More]

    Comments

    Joanne

    This looks to me like Paris' version of the Watts riots in the 1960s.

    Steve M

    A very nice piece, Judy, and I suspect that your conclusions are about right. Thank you.

    Sunny

    (come here by a link Steve posted on my blog).

    Well written Judy, I suspect you've hit the nail on the head. The riots in France have led to people ride their favourite hobby horses rather than evaluate the situation carefully. Every single interview I've seen also has the youth saying they are French but complaining that the state does not seem them as such.

    Neal

    Judy,

    An interesting article. I note that the underlying issue with France is its agreement with the Arab League not to integrate Muslim immigrants but, instead, to keep such people acculturated with their places of origin.

    I might also note that the evidence is not quite the simple grievance evidence suggested in the articles you have uncovered. Moreover, I would not take the evidence from The Independent seriously. That paper is committed to fantasies about the Arab and greater Muslim regions.

    How would the reporter know whether 50% or 90@ or 99% of the rioters are Muslims? Did they take a poll? I doubt it but the stated view fits the hopes of Europeans as filtered by the politics of The Independent.

    More importantly, the main demand, according to The Independent is exactly religious in character - if one considers religion as a question of identity -, namely "to be left alone by police and the Interior Minister, Nicolas Sark-ozy, to continue with their life of low-level violence and drugs trading." Translated: they demand to develop an identity apart from France. And the basis of that demand is personal political identity which, for the most part, is Muslim.

    Now, I do not think people are rioting to spread a faith - which evidently is the brain dead newspaper test for the issue being about Islam -. I do think, however, they are rioting because of the policies put in place (and, despite minor differences in different EU countries, all EU countries have agreed not to integrate the Muslim immigrants but instead to keep them acculturated toward their places of origin.) that teach such people that they are not really French. Such people understand the reality and are acting on it. And, in the end, France will likely be another Yugoslavia, as the dispute is, in that sense, about religion in the sense of being about identity. And, frankly, that is more important than whether or not the goal is to spread the faith.

    If you doubt me about the details of the agreements in place - and, as I said, such agreements are in place all across the EU -, read Bat Ye'or's book Eurabia: The Euro-Arab Axis. One can disagree with her politics and opinions. However, the facts regarding the agreements in place are black and white and not really subject to any serious doubt.

    Inna

    I would like to note the obvious. The kids doing the rioting are teenagers.

    Now, perhaps some of you have (like me) nightmares about that "wonderful" time and perhaps you don't. But I think we will agree that the teenage years are pretty messed up--and that's the best case scenario for most of us.

    Now throw in social isolation and societal perception that you're a loser and will never amount to anything. Add to that (for some of the rioters) a socio-religious background in which they, as children, were taught that they and their faith were superior to the unbelievers. Sprinkle with governmental incompetence and I think you have to ask yourself--how come it didn't happen sooner?

    Regards,

    Inna

    Judy

    Joanne, Steve, Sunny-- thanks...

    Neal- I don't underestimate the significance of the links between the Arab League and the EU that Bat Ye'or has documented. I did some years of research into the impact of EU agreements of various sorts some years ago, and came to the conclusion that they lay behind many apparently national policy changes. However, I don't think they provide the reason for these riots. They are one element in a fairly complex background, but for me the bottom line is a combination of the statist/alienation thesis.

    Inna-- I don't think it's correct to say the rioters are all teenagers. If you look at the Mort Pour Rien photo of the demo in Clichy sous Bois which I referred to, they are clearly not

    http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/051029/481/ena10310291205

    And as far as I can see from that photo they are clearly not all Muslims either. And it's not a Respect type usual-suspects parade either. That's what's so striking for me.

    Animal

    The terror apologists are working overtime on this one. What a clever bunch of 'teenagers' to have a little bomb factory. Obviously there's no religious or anti-gov't overtones, but it is strangely coincidental that they are terrorizing Jewish businesses, schools and synagogues along with gov't post offices and vehicles.

    Tatterdemalian

    Keep in mind, though, that Muslims will happily tell any lie to justify their actions.

    They will riot at the slightest hint that an American put a Koran in the toilet, yet when one of the Guantonomo detainees uses a Koran to try to plug the toilet, they salute his ingenuity.

    They proclaim that it is a crime against Islam to carry weapons into a mosque, yet use them as ammunition depots and even bunkers from which to fire on other Muslims.

    They claim they have no economic or social opportunities, yet they have the money to build factories for manufacturing petrol bombs.

    The sad fact is, they are proclaiming their victimhood not because of any actual discrimination they have suffered, but because it helps keep the infidel from organizing against them by sowing discord among our ranks. If they thought we would fight more amongst ourselves than against them by saying that water is not wet, they would be declaring that they were fighting against dry water the next day.

    They can't be negotiated with, because they have no real demands. The ones they claim are constantly changing, because they only claim them as long as they are useful in the war against the infidel. And, most frustrating for the French, they cannot be surrendered to, because they keep changing the terms of surrender to keep the battle going.

    JohnM

    The AP photograph you link to shows the demonstration on the Saturday to remember the deaths of the two teenagers, not the actual riots. Since your article concerns knee jerk responses, it is only fair to note that such a demonstration would have attracted the usual knee-jerk left wingers eager to blame anyone but the rioters. It is not possible from that picture to claim any knowledge of the enthnicity of the rioters.

    I read reports claiming that rioters were heard shouting "allahu ackbar". Of course it's quite possible that these were troublemakers, or a minority.

    I tend to agree with you that commentators have rushed to reinforce their own prejudices. Nevertheless I would say the following. I lived in Moss Side briefly and in inner Leeds for a very long time. The rioters then, who were mainly young men, certainly wanted the police to keep out of their areas. However older residents had a different view. In normal life they were unlikely to be mistreated by the police and their idea of prejudice was that they couldn't get the police to deal with the crime that they were suffering from.

    The Paris riots have this in common with the UK riots. I've not seen one interview with a decent ordinary person who has had his car torched, or with someone running a marginal, probably uninsurable business, now wrecked.

    The media report either the clash of civilisations or the romantic rebel harbingers of revolution.

    Juan Paxety

    As an American who lived through the riots of the 60s, I see a fundamental difference.

    Blacks were, for the most part, rioting because of their lack of inclusion in mainstream U.S. society.

    The rioters in France are rioting to remain excluded and segregated into their own society.

    Sunny

    The rioters in France are rioting to remain excluded and segregated into their own society.

    Clearly you haven't watched a single interview with any of the rioters then.

    Sunny

    In the above comment, I was quoting Juan in the first line.

    Sundown

    But it's true. The muslims in the Paris cites want their own zones of administration. That will guarantee eternal segregation, and it is what the community leaders say they want. Listen to them! They want to be separate and govern themselves inside France. Do they really want to be on the reservation? Think Gaza.

    Yaron

    I agree with your basic analysis, although I do have to say that by the standards of Islamism, even the intifada wasn't an intifada. The Palestinians adopted some of the rhetoric of Islam and martyrdom, and the Islamists certainly co-opted their cause, but the Palestinians themselves not especially known for their devoutness. At its core, the intifada, too, was (is?) an aimless "revolutionary" extended riot.

    Tatterdemalian

    There are as many interviews with rioters demanding increased integration into French society, as there are interviews with rioters demanding increased segregation from French society.

    When are the people going to realize that both demands are lies? Probably not until it's way too late.

    As for this agnostic, all I can say is, if it takes a fervent belief in Judeo-Christianity to fight back against the coming worldwide Caliphate, then praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!

    Jonathan

    I was one of the people who drew a parallel between the French riots and the Intifada. There are obvious similarities in tactics -- violence just short of the level that would elicit a decisively harsh official response. And the socio-political contexts are at least superficially similar as well, since 1980s Israel could fairly be accused of having made similar blunders in dealing with the Arab population of Judea and Samaria as the French government seems to have made WRT Muslim immigrants. The big question, however, is whether the French government will quash the riots forcefully or attempt to appease the rioters. If the latter, the way appears open for the current disturbances to morph into something even worse. I hope that I am wrong about this and about the Intifada parallel, since the Israeli attempt to appease the Palestinian leadership culminated in a second Intifada that was much worse than the first one and required much more force to suppress.

    Rob Read

    "There are as many interviews with rioters demanding increased integration into French society, as there are interviews with rioters demanding increased segregation from French society."

    What's for certain is that they ALL want to make taxpaying French people work harder for their welfare.

    Socialism is Slavery.

    Inna

    Judy writes "And as far as I can see from that photo they are clearly not all Muslims either. And it's not a Respect type usual-suspects parade either. That's what's so striking for me."

    I know. That's what I said "some". I should probably have said "a few".

    Regards,

    Inna

    big dirigible

    Pundits and commentators are conflating several different populations, with different motives. Interviews with a member of one population tell us nothing about the other players.

    Recall Russia circa 1917. Communists had agitated for years, making no notable progress - an assassination here, a strike there - nothing much. But during the first World War, the Russian transport industry was overwhelmed, transporting supplies to the Front. So food was no longer being transported in sufficient quantities to feed the larger cities. Crowds of ordinary citizens gathered in the streets, looking for nonexistent food to buy, loot, or whatever. Finally the Communists had their chance - people trained to harrange and manipulate crowds suddenly had crowds to harrange and manipulate. We may be seeing something similar in France. Most of the rioters may be nothing more sinister than confused teenagers - but that doesn't mean that they're not doing the dirty work for opportunistic manipulators.

    Neal

    Judy,

    The issue here is what drives the various sociological problems as they relate specifically to a certain class of immigrants and their offspring.

    One of the important factors has to be the Euro-Arab Dialogue (now Mediterranean Partnership), a central force in European politics, spilling across innumerable aspects of society (from business, to politics, to culture, to education and to the press) as such is a rather key manufactured basis for the agreed upon unity among the European states in their formation of the EU (and, on a different topic, is, in considerable measure, part of what lurks behind the anti-Israel trend in Europe). As it relates to the violence in France - but not only in France -, such is important because of the agreements the Dialogue put in place which correspond with the very sorts of problems with the Muslim community which is, Europe-wide, occuring.

    Now, there are obviously other factors such as racism, social ostracism, poverty, discrimination, lack of education, minimal socialization, etc., etc., which are certainly causal. But, these things cannot possibly be sufficient causes for the sorts of problems that have occured. Otherwise, the violence would involve poor people more generally, not predominantly immigrants from Arab countries.

    The keys must be found in the decisions which make relations with European Muslims track very, very differently. And for that, one must look at the Dialogue as the starting point. This is becuase the Dialogue is the central basis for the entry of the immigrants in issue and for the process of integration that the various EU countries (and, before that, the European Community countries) have established.

    Now, another key factor that could be examined regards how Islam teachers Muslims to deal with non-Muslims. That, combined with how Christianity (not to mention the ethnic based societies which, unlike the US, characterize European nationhood), teaches even nominal Christians and works in even nominally Christian society, creates the desire for separatism on both - not just the Muslim - side.

    Now, the Dialogue, since it includes provisions precluding EU countries from integrating the immigrants somehow must be a causal factor and, in fact, a primary cause of why basically all European countries have been so remarkably careless (a) in permitting massive immigration of people with a different culture while (b) doing pretty much nothing to integrate such people into society. Were such people better acculturated, even if there were discrimination and poverty, separatism and the desire, as with the London bombers, to be part of the ummah and not British society, would not be quite the element that it clearly is.

    Dwight in IL

    I've said before in other forums on this issue that I think both views ("Muslim intifada" and "secular riot") are largely accurate. Not in a wishy-washy sense of "a little of this and a little of that" but in the robust sense of "both....and".

    That is, there are those rioting out of a sense of Islamic identity, some even directly in league with Islamist elements. There are others rioting in the hopes of securing secular concessions. And there are probably many rioting simply because they can.

    When you take people, keep them locked away in separate enclaves, take active measures to make assimilation hard, and provide no real economic opportunity, what do you expect? These areas became little (largely Islamic) states unto themselves as a direct result of French immigration policy, economic stagnation, and multi-culti sentiment.

    Then, one French minister decided that having vast areas where rape, robbery, assault, and arson are simply the rule of the day was not acceptible and tried to end the lawlessness. Naturally this provoked a riot: from the drug dealers, from the thugs, and from the Islamic activists. And with over a third of the 18-22 year old men without work, there were a lot of people with nothing to do but riot all night.

    France, and Europe, now face very hard questions. How can they provide the economic opportunity and culture that will marginalize the criminals and jihadists and bring the bulk of these folks into mainstream society? Is it even possible? I think the lack of dynamic economies really hurts here, since in the US one of the main avenues for immigrant assimilation has been economic opportunity. Without a dynamic sector in which lots of jobs and opporutnities are "up for grabs" I don't know how the problem can be solved.

    Steve M

    I would like to refer once more to John Lichfield writing in The Independent:

    "Talk of an intifada is absurdly misleading. Firstly, the rioters are far from being all Muslim (although more than half are from Islamic backgrounds). Second, they have no sense of political or religious identity and no political demands."

    I believe it would be a serious error if the authorities were to 'Islamicize' the rioters. Rather they should follow the example of Lord Scarman who was employed to report following the Brixton riots in the UK.

    Lord Scarman reported that the riots were caused by serious social and economic problems affecting Britain's inner cities. Describing the riots as "the worst outbreak of disorder in the UK this century" he blamed the "racial disadvantage that is a fact of British life".

    The report both criticised police and the government but also said there was no excuse for the violence and disorder.

    It would be better to diffuse the situation in France than to inflame it and thus play into the hands of both the far right and the Islamic extremists.

    JC

    Thanks for your article, and for the many thoughtful comments that have followed. I have been trying to develop a clearer personal understanding of this situation, as I have only thus far seen the two opposing views of the root causes of the riots: racism and socioeconimic problems vs. muslim intifada. I think the truth contains elements of both theories, and it seems unwise to me to completely discount either in the interest of furthering a particular ideological agenda.

    Tatterdemalian

    Problem is, either way you look at it, one of the left's sacred cows is going to get gored. The French riots are either a failure of socialism, or a failure of multiculturalism, or (worst of all) a failure of both.

    Which is why the French government and international media are, with mounting hysteria, declaring that it is a failure of neither, when they are forced to admit that there is a riot going on. If you pay attention, in between the constant denials that the rioting is based on race or religion, they assert that it is actually France's remaining capitalist enterprises, and Skorzy's cultural insensitivity, that are the true cause of the riots.

    I suspect that, if anyone does prove that Al-Qaeda is organizing the riots, the media will accuse the Bush Administration of being responsible.

    DWPittelli

    "no political demands.... Their main demand... is to be left alone by police ... to continue with their life of low-level violence and drugs trading."

    So autonomy from the State is not a political demand?

    The Monster

    "Problem is, either way you look at it, one of the left's sacred cows is going to get gored. The French riots are either a failure of socialism, or a failure of multiculturalism, or (worst of all) a failure of both."

    That won't stop them. Different leftitst agitators may have to STFU for the nonce, but others will just yell all the louder. Next time it will be the other way round. The fact that their policies are mutually defeating is not a bug, it's a feature. The more you pursue one line, the more aggrieved victims are created demanding that you follow another. It's a win-win for the left.

    Jonathan

    I agree completely with your analysis Judy. There was a good article in Ha'aretz http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/642206.html
    by Dror Mashani. The 'French intifada' interpretations written by hardline commentators make me wince. I am going to hear Bat Ye'or speak, her research is apparently meticulous but even if there were not 'agreements' in place, no EU government could afford to take a hardline against such a huge ethnic group, so the agreements to which Bat Ye'or refers seem to me to be not very relevant.

    Jonathan

    Another good comment in Financial Times yesterday, pointing out that unemployment in some areas is 50% for young Muslims. Alienation is not just caused by economic factors of course, but France's rigid labour market and employment discrimination fuel alienation and provide a fertile recruiting ground for militants. Why is there so little alienation of young Muslims in the US? - because the combination of flexible labour markets and low welfare entitlements mean that young Muslims are both forced and allowed to integrate economically, therefore socially. That doesn't mean they lose their identity ...

    FT editorial 8 November: "The social elevator is broken. This notion, recently popularised by French writer Aziz Senni, comes as close as any rational analysis can to explaining the thinking of the rioters who have turned France's outer suburbs into scenes of anarchy over the past week.

    What France has seen is, in part at least, a revolt of a marginalised section of society - heavily, but not exclusively Muslim - cut off from economic opportunity by the policies and attitudes of the establishment. Any strategy for bringing social peace must include demolishing the barriers that have kept these latter-day sans culottes at the margins of the French economy.

    None of this is to suggest that the riots can be attributed in a deterministic sense to economic policies and outcomes. The neighbourhoods that have burned night after night have witnessed scenes of rage and violence that defy easy explanation. Pure criminality is visible. So too is an anarchists' cocktail of alienation by race, religion and youth against the institutions of the republican secular state.

    Yet this alienation draws strength from the denial of economic opportunities. Work, and the hope of advancement it brings, is the best integration strategy. Youth unemployment in France is 21 per cent; in some riot-hit suburbs the unemployment rate among young Muslims is 40 to 50 per cent.

    There is strong anecdotal (andsome research-based) evidence ofdiscrimination by employers. This must be stamped out ruthlessly.

    However, the essential point is that the French labour market system marginalises young, less qualified and less mainstream people by design. These would-be workers are prevented from competing with fortunate insiders by minimum wages and payroll taxes that price them out of the market.

    They also suffer disproportionately from firing restrictions that make employers reluctant to hire new workers in general, and those of whom they may have doubts in particular.

    Nicolas Sarkozy, the interior minister, merits credit for raising the issue of economic marginalisation. But his solution - positive discrimination - is a decidedly second-best plan. Better to fix the structures that create the marginalisation in the first place.

    The best way to tackle youth and minority unemployment would be to cut the minimum wage and payroll taxes, while providing new in-work benefits or negative income taxes to make work pay. The state should also reduce the job protection rights of those in work, to create more of a level playing field for those without.

    Policies that reduce unemployment do not necessarily banish alienation. Britain has endured local riots, and home-grown suicide bombers, in recent years. But economic opportunity reduces the reservoir of dissatisfaction in which anger and hate breed. Justice and common sense demand that it be extended equally to all."

    Grégory

    Hello all from Paris,

    I read US press online on regular basis just for comparison sake and found this blog thanks to Slate. As usual it's nice to read different appreciation and analysis. While being "in the place" I certainly don't feel I understand better than you what happens. I just thought it would be nice to add a bit of Parisian feedback on this (and maybe add to the picture) :

    - first the riots are *not* in Paris. Nearly nothing special happen in Paris itself - it's all in the suburbs, especially the far suburbs - and not only Paris suburbs but Toulouse or Lyon as well. It's a suburbs crisis, not a Parisian crisis

    - as partially stated above, to have an international interpretation of what happend may be misleading. Sure does religion play a part but it really doesn't look like there is an ideology behind it. Mostly it's an exasperation of poor segregated ppl (here : lots of former algerian but other as well) and to that regard it has an international resonance... but just on how rich occidental countries happend to loose the middle class and accentuate the gap between rich and poor.

    My personal feeling is that most religions are weaker in France, because the country's culture is one of a country that has build its identity by rejecting religion radically. Althought fresh muslim immigrants are more religious than the average christian here (and probably more numerous) you see a lot of supposedly muslim that are not really into their religion. And for the ones who are, religious authority for french muslims clearly condemned violence and Al Quaeda - surfing on what is a general feeling amongst muslims here. AQ is certainly not very popular anywhere here (although I am sad to say US clearly are relatively unpopular nearly everywhere here but that's another topic).

    - to understand what happens here it also may help to realise there are not really violences. Nearly no dead or wounded ppl - just thousands of cars and various municipality buildings burned. I think this is terribly important. It shows you how much it's more about showing the rioters are just pissed off rather than attacking anything. (additionnaly it show you how nice it is to let ppl have weapons, but that's another topic too :P )

    - and apparently cars and state buildings are often burned in places that are usually quiet. Sometimes ppl realise their sons participate to this while they thought of him as reasonable. There also a factor of "wow, something happen for once" that may have a big importance for what is mainly a riot of teenager in the suburbs. Especially in time where there is a close to 0% faith in any politic of any sort.

    Now I am sure rioters would love to politically burn Nicolas Sarkozy (Interior Prime Minister and political competitor of Jacques Chirac). But that's probably as far as they want their revolution to go. Oh, and get jobs too...

    Grégory

    Just read Johnatan post - sounds like the right analaysis to me :)

    Unfortunately the reason for the "second best plan" may be that the "first best plan" is probably politically unfeasable. PPL here are very much attached to unemployment subventions and health care and once they have it they don't want to acknowledge the cost it as and how much unemployment it creates due to working costs for enterprises.

    Grégory

    unfeasable = impossible, sorry for the english ...

    Big Bill

    I buy the Watts and Detroit comparison. Both in France and America, dumb black and Arab folks were lured up north to do stupid scut work. Dumb jobs for dumb folks. When the businesses up north failed and the jobs disappeared, they were still dumb, stolid, utterly lacking in initiative and mentally unable to go look for work elsewhere in the EU, as is their right.

    Whenever employers offer jobs to ignorant peasant masses with much lower IQs, they are going to get workers whose children will be just as dumb as their parents, but with a nasty attitude and unfounded sense of entitlement.

    Israel solved the problem by expelling Arabs who had the same sense of entitlement and grievance and hiring foreigners from around the world. The Jews in Israel do not let them settle in Israel to create a multiracial and multicultural underclass. They insure that the work periods are temporary, that the workers have money to go home, and some contract worker agencies even make the foreign workers agree in writing not to schtupp Jews while in Israel to prevent miscegenation.

    We should copy Israeli Jews. They are wrestling with the same issue and have come up with effective ways to prevent multiculturalism from destroying their country.

    Grégory

    Yes. The expelled Arabs magically dissapeared, so there was no anger against Israel from Arabs. And no violence at all.

    Hum. Are you a troll ?

    Boojums

    Ma'am, you said:

    "I found I constantly got picked up by young Algerian men. It eventually penetrated my consciousness that the reason they made such a beeline for me was that no French girl would so much as look at them, and they were desperate for some sort of social and preferably sexual outlet.

    I did begin spontaneously to think about what led to this state of affairs. Previously I would have thought of it as the product of something we in those days called prejudice. But I worked out for myself that it was more than that."

    Ma'am, there are a lot of much simpler reasons.

    1. Back in 1960, Jews still sat shiva for Jewish girls who married gentiles, even rich gentiles (and don't even *mention* Jewish girls who went around shtupping Muslim men for fun!).

    2. Back in 1960, girls didn't scr*w around anywhere like they do now.

    3. Back in 1960, no decent French girl would marry outside her faith and into a culture of ruthless women-hating.

    4. Back in 1960, French girls knew they were being hit on because they were infidel whores under Muslim law and therefore fair game for any Muslim man, just as 13-year-old infidel girls are whores under Muslim law to British, Swedish, Norwegian and Australian Muslims and are periodically gang-raped.

    5. Back in 1960, French girls saw these men for what they were: poor, backward, ignorant, and having no potential.

    6. Back in 1960, French girls knew the Algerian men were hitting on them and not hitting on Algerian girls was because they respected and protected their own womenfolk and treated French girls as mere receptacles.

    Ma'am, I know "what lead to this state of affairs" but just what do you propose the French government do about it?

    * Have a corps of French comfort women to service Algerians free? Give nthat they hit on Frencch girls all the time, they apparently are not willing to pay for sex.

    * Give Algerian men vouchers to go to French prostitutes? Perhaps as a supplement to the dole?

    * Teach multiculturalism and miscegenation in French grade schools and high schools so French women will be more eager to sexually service Algerian men for free?

    * Teach French girls that not having sex with Algerian men is "a product of something called prejudice" as you put it and count on liberal French guilt?

    * Create French movies and rap videos that show sex between Algerian men and French women? (Given the French commitmeent to the arts, this holds perhaps the most promise.)

    But here's the part i just ddon't get. You obviously feel sorry for them because French girls wouldn't spread their legs, yet I am sure that you, your daughters and your granddaughters are not out servicing poor ignorant Algerian men in England or France. So why are you so disturbed that French girls won't do it? What is so bad about "this state of affairs" as you put it? If Muslim men really want sex, let them go after all the French Muslim sisters, daughters, cousins, and mothers out there.

    Allan@Aberdeen

    The argument that it is because of 'exclusion' that the usual suspects are rioting doesn't bear scrutiny. In every country to which muslims migrate, they are to be found at the bottom of the economic heap. In the US, arabs perform quite well until it is found that the majority of these 'arabs' are Christian.
    In the UK, hindus perform better than the hosts and muslims (especially from Bangladesh) are at the bottom. From this simple fact, one may determine that there can be no 'racism' present, otherwise the Hindus would perform as miserably as their co-ethnics from Bangladesh. Muslims perform poorly in the western world because they are muslim: it's as simple as that.

    Judy

    Boojums -- you really need to take a cold bath. Your imagination is wildly overheated. The sexual/racist fantasies you drool on about here have little to do with my post, and do you no credit.

    Allan-- both you and Boojums offer unevidenced and gross slurs on Muslims which are unacceptable.

    There was once a time when people of similar prejudices used to come out with stuff like this about Jews.

    Then their equivalents offered the same gross slurs against blacks. Now the despised group of preference are Muslims.

    Considering the vast diversity of ethnic and national groups involved, it's just ridiculous.

    Allan@Aberdeen

    Judy, if what I wrote is factually incorrect, I am willing to be corrected. Please do so if you can.

    Allan@Aberdeen

    To find out why muslims are so backward, you may like to start here:

    http://www.islamundressed.com/

    or here;

    http://www.thetruthproject.blogspot.com/

    and this is worth a look at, (Who’s that guy with the moustache with whom the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem is in deep conversation?)

    http://www.schule.dk/islam/islam.htm

    Charles

    We've got a few posts up about all this, and a translation or two (from Badiou, and Negri).

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