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    Yes, China is the Great Yellow Hope of the socialists: that's why you can hardly open a newspaper without reading about how China is poised to take over the world's economy. Of course no nation has anything to fear from China's economic ascendancy: it will make us all richer, because economics is not a zero-sum game, the average journalist's lack of basic economic knowledge notwithstanding. But as you correctly point out, there is a risk from China's continued abrogation of basic political and human rights. There is a blithe assumption that economic freedom will automatically lead to political freedom, but I doubt it's a given. And it's rather strange that all the people who complain about "Bushitler's Nazi regime" and the erosion of civil liberties in the UK under NuLab, are completely silent on China. (And don't get me started on Tibet: a country is systematically and deliberately stolen from its native people by an imperial power, and all anyone can go on about is the supposed injustices of the poor Palestinians. Yeah right.)



    As the Protest Warriors' counter-demonstrator signs put it so aptly:

    "End the Occupation, from Palestine to Iraq.

    * Does not include Tibet, Singapore, Lebanon or anyone else under Communist or Islmamist subjegation. They need to stop bitching."


    "Communism has only killed 100 million people. Let's give it another chance."


    When I readthis I knew Livingstone had not written it. It has too many press-release phrases, too much of the fund-manager's hype about the Chinese money-machine.

    It is always fun to watch a bubble - it was Saudi Arabia in 1973 that would own the world. It was Japan that would surpass the USA. Now it is Japanese and US and European factories in China that will be the new horizon.

    Funny thing about Livingstone's article; he wanted to suggest that Asia could exist without the US but he knows zilch about Economics. It is the US Trade Deficit which allows Asia to boom - 10% US trade deficit is due to Wal-Mart alone !

    Most Chinese cannot afford the goods they make; most Chinese companies make no money; most chinese banks are insolvent. This is yet another Boom Cycle on the Great Capitalist Adventure - we have seen them all through history and Charles Kindleberger wrote the book

    Alex Cleaver

    You're lying. Straight out lying.

    Read George Monbiot or Tim Garton Ash's vast pieces in Milne's pages attacking Chinese human rights abuses.

    Why don't u ever talk about Israel's human rights abuses? Or are Palestinians not human enough for you?

    Why are you so anti-Palestinian? What, exactly, is the fault of the children in refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Gaza, West Bank, Jerusalem? Why must they suffer under a belligerent and illegal occupation that you refuse to criticise?!



    The occupation is not illegal and those women and children languish under the conditions they do for many reasons, the primary one being that that is where the Arab leadership, Palestinian and otherwise, want them.

    And as for Israel's human rights abuses, on the UN's own scale of such things, Israel ranks about #33 in conditions of fairly open war. Go compare that with, say, Iran or any number of "unoccupied" Muslim nations.

    This thread had nothing to do with Israel. Raising your complaint for the purposes of attacking Judy, suggests that you are just one of the many obsessives, and very likely the product of 40+ years of Palestinian propaganda.


    I've now looked through as much as I can of the back catalogue of both Garton Ash and Monbiot, since Alex accuses me of lying. That would imply I deliberately suppressed information, which I didn't.

    It's true that Timothy Garton Ash has written on the need not to kowtow to the Chinese, in the course of an article which lists a whole slew of countries he criticises. So far, I've been unable to find any reference by him to Tibet or to the sort of abuses I've drawn attention to in my posts.

    Whereas with Monbiot, there's this absolute gem which he had in the Grauniad in 1996:

    China’s announcement last week that it will build new schools all over Tibet to eliminate illiteracy (and a few antisocial cultural tendencies) was greeted in Britain not with delight but with repulsion. We were quick to condemn Ceaucescu for forcing Romania’s gypsies into regular housing.

    Still, 1996 is an awful long time ago....and I'm sure his politics have come a long way since then. He had a post last September on net/journalist censorship in China. But that was primarily to hit out against Murdoch, Cisco and Yahoo.

    So I'm sorry I overlooked these refs. But I think my general point still holds. It would be more accurate to say China and its brutalities seem to not appear in the Comments section of the Guardian except as sticks to beat western governments and companies with

    As for Palestinian issues, Alex, you clearly haven't read my blog. For example, One of only two links I have to media other than blogs is to a site run by Palestinian journalists, which runs plenty of information on human rights abuses. I've also posted several times enthusiastically featuring a blogger who lived in and described her life in Gaza.

    I don't equate Palestinians as a people with marxist and Islamist Palestinian propaganda or Palestinian terrorist groups. Nor do the brave Palestinian journalists whose work I've repeatedly drawn attention to.



    I am wondering if Alex's response was directed at my reference to ProtestWarriors' counterprotest sign that asks the question why the "anti-war" types only concern themselves about Iraq, Palestine, and are deaf, dumb and blind about countries like Tibet, Taiwan and Lebanon that are genuinely in subjegation, not at the hands of the big and little satans (US and Israel), but Communists, Baathists and the like.


    it is I believe fair to say that China does have an appalling human rights record.
    Certainly the Chinese do not appear to be a guilt ridden and driven society in spite of their excesses which rival those of the Europeans.
    However it is the only major world power not to have suffered the slings and arrows of islamic jihad and propaganda.
    perhaps some lack of democracy and radical multiculturism is part of the answer ?



    I'm sure traditional Communist oppression of its opponents as practiced by the mainland Chinese has kept a lid on its Muslim minorities. The question is how long it will hold.

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